Karen Sherman: The Smell of Dance

EPISODE 6
Choreographer Karen Sherman talks about the politics of applause and the olfactory landscape of the stage.

ABOUT THE GUEST
Karen Sherman makes performances that have been presented by P.S. 122, Walker Art Center, Center for the Art of Performance at UCLA, PICA/TBA Festival, Highways Performance Space, Philadelphia Dance Projects, and many other spaces across the U.S. Her work has been recognized with a Bessie Award, two McKnight Foundation Fellowships in Choreography, several MacDowell Colony fellowships, and residencies through Vermont Performance Lab and the Bogliasco Foundation program in Liguria, Italy. She was a 2016-2017 Hodder Fellow in The Lewis Center for the Arts at Princeton University. More information at karenshermanperformance.org.

ABOUT THE HOST
Neil Goldberg is an artist in NYC who makes work that The New York Times has described as “tender, moving and sad but also deeply funny.” His work is in the permanent collection of MoMA and other museums, he’s a Guggenheim Fellow, and teaches at the Yale School of Art. More information at neilgoldberg.com.

ABOUT THE TITLE
SHE’S A TALKER was the name of Neil’s first video project. “One night in the early 90s I was combing my roommate’s cat and found myself saying the words ‘She’s a talker.’ I wondered how many other other gay men in NYC might be doing the exact same thing at that very moment. With that, I set out on a project in which I videotaped over 80 gay men in their living room all over NYC, combing their cats and saying ‘She’s a talker.’” A similar spirit of NYC-centric curiosity and absurdity animates the podcast.

CREDITS
This series is made possible with generous support from Stillpoint Fund.
Producer: Devon Guinn
Creative Consultants: Stella Binion, Aaron Dalton, Molly Donahue
Assistant Producers: Itai Almor, Charlie Theobald
Editor: Andrew Litton
Visuals and Sounds: Joshua Graver
Theme Song: Jeff Hiller
Media: Justine Lee with help from Angela Liao and Alex Qiao
Thanks: Jennifer Callahan, Roger Kingsepp, Tod Lippy, Nick Rymer, Maddy Sinnock, Sue Simon, Shirin Mazdeyasna

TRANSCRIPTION:

KAREN SHERMAN: He asked me what I did for a living, and I said, “I’m a dancer.” And as soon as I said it, I realized, “Oh, god, that was like the worst thing to say.” He thought I was a stripper.

NEIL GOLDBERG: Uh-huh.

KAREN: Which I then said, “Oh, no, no. You know, I do shows in theaters.” And I think, then, he searched my car, and I had, ironically, a French maid outfit and a bunch of rope. So I had just told him that I wasn’t in any of those businesses, and then he found all my props.

NEIL: Hello. I’m Neil Goldberg, and this is my new podcast She’s A Talker. On today’s episode, I’ll be talking to choreographer Karen Sherman, but first I want to tell you a little bit about the podcast itself. I’m a visual artist, but for the last million or so years I’ve been writing passing thoughts down on index cards. I’ve got thousands of them.

NEIL: I originally wrote the cards just for me, or maybe as starting points for future art projects, but in She’s A Talker I’m using them as prompts for conversations with some of my favorite artists, writers, performers, and beyond. These days, the cards often start out as recordings I make into my phone throughout the day. Here are some recent ones.

NEIL: Candles are like pet flames. Every generation has its own all-male contemporary dance company. Jew shop looking like a fruit holocaust. My favorite video game is walking in the city at night and obeying the traffic signals.

NEIL: I’m so happy to have as my guest choreographer Karen Sherman. Karen makes performance works that are really hard to describe. Her recent piece, Soft Goods, for instance, is about stagehands and other folks who are instrumental to performance making. Karen was a longtime stage technician herself, and the piece was structure as a kind of live tech rehearsal for a show that never happens.

NEIL: And it was gorgeous, heartbreaking, and really funny. Karen lived in New York City for nearly two decades but now is based out of Minneapolis. We talked over the summer when she was in town performing. Here goes. Karen, can I just ask you, how do you describe what it is you do, briefly/

KAREN: I mean, I usually say I’m a choreographer, and it’s unfortunately one of those answers that nobody knows what it means, so it’s almost a conversation stopper but not enough of a conversation stopper, so then they want to know more, if I make music videos, or that kind of thing, and then when they ask more questions I just try to be kind of surly.

KAREN: But if I have to write it, and I’m going to just do a short description, I say I make dances, write, and build things.

NEIL: How do your parents tell their friends what you do? What do they say?

KAREN: Oh. One time, this was many years ago, my brother is a lawyer. He was out with a bunch of, what do they call them in law firms?

NEIL: Lawyers?

KAREN: No.

NEIL: Associates? Juniors? Rookies? Cadets?

KAREN: Associates, yeah, or summer interns, or something. He was taking a bunch of them out for drinks, and he called me from a bar, and he was like, “I’m out right now with these associates, interns from work, and none of them believe that my sister is a dancer, or a choreographer,” I forget what he called it, “so they want to get on the phone with you to quiz you basically to see if you really are who I said you were.”

KAREN: And so they all got on the phone with me, and asked questions like, “Your brother said you won some big award. What was it?”

NEIL: Oh, interesting.

KAREN: That kind of thing.

NEIL: I thought they were going to be just sort of generically asking the questions that would confirm whether or not someone is a choreographer.

KAREN: No. I mean, that would’ve been more interesting, actually. I mean, “How do you remember all the steps?” It’s usually that kind of question. But no, I think he had been trying to prove it on his own, and probably pulled out these specific points of reference, and then they were like, “Okay, we’re going to do due diligence here.”

NEIL: As attorneys will, even if they’re associates.

KAREN: Even if they’re associates, and then they-

NEIL: Or juniors, or whatever.

KAREN: Well, hopefully none of them decided to become choreographers after that conversation.

NEIL: Oh, god.

KAREN: I tried to encourage them to stay where the money was, but.

NEIL: There’s not a lot of money in choreography?

KAREN: You didn’t need to add the a lot part, but it was polite of you to do so.

NEIL: What are you thinking about today?

KAREN: Today-today?

NEIL: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Today-today-today.

KAREN: I was thinking this morning about a parlor game that I came up with yesterday. You might really like this game. It can be a drinking game or a parlor game, depending on whether you’re old fashioned or new fashioned, or a drunk.

NEIL: Which is which? Yeah.

KAREN: One person creates a list of everything they’ve been asked to procure fr someone’s show, or that they might be asked to procure for someone’s show, and everyone else has to guess who the artist is.

NEIL: Wow. That is so specific. That’s a great game.

KAREN: Yeah, it’s a good dance game. Yesterday, on my way to work, I had to pick up gin, batteries, and Rescue Remedy, and that was just one half-hour worth of errands, and you know, I could create a whole list of everything I’ve gotten for this particular project, but I thought, “Okay, if I had just said gin, batteries, and Rescue Remedy, whose show am I working on?”

NEIL: I love it. Is it like name that tune, where you can buzz in, where you get it at gin?

KAREN: Oh, right.

NEIL: You know, like it’s like-

KAREN: That’s a really good idea.

NEIL: “I can name that.”

KAREN: Oh, that’d be fun, and then I could make some buzzers.

NEIL: Let’s do some cards. First card, the smell of dance.

KAREN: Oh, god.

NEIL: When I look at dance, I can’t help but think about, “What does it smell like up there?” What are your thoughts about the smell of dance?

KAREN: Oh, I was just deep in the smell of dance last night. Wow. You know, honestly, the smell of dance is not the same as the smell of me right now, or at the end of the day yesterday, of working a long day and being on the subway. Like, the subway sweat, or it’s also an aging thing, like the sweat is changing as I’m aging, but it’s an honest smell, the smell of dance.

KAREN: Like that sweat is cleaner, or something. But I mean, there’s a foot thing, sometimes. You know, for all of the times in a dance that I’ve had my face close up, in somebody’s orifice areas or-

NEIL: OAs.

KAREN: I’m in the OAs. Yeah, face up in the, you know, crotch, or the armpits, or neck, hair, feet, I don’t really feel that-

NEIL: Butt?

KAREN: Butt, yes, we can … yeah, do you want to talk more about that?

NEIL: I’m just-

KAREN: Having an agenda?

NEIL: Supplying OAs.

KAREN: Yeah. I don’t really, I’m not conscious of the smell, in the way that I am, like, in sex for example, I’m going to be more conscious of how all those same places smell, or even hugging someone hello, or being in a part, maybe. Maybe there’s not enough mental bandwidth to process that level of both sort of sensuality and social etiquette about how you smell or about how someone else smells, because there’s just not enough.

KAREN: I don’t know, you’ve got other things to do in a dance.

NEIL: While you’re dancing.

KAREN: Yeah.

NEIL: Whereas sex, in a certain way, that is what it’s about it.

KAREN: That’s all you have to do.

NEIL: Yeah, exactly. That’s interesting.

KAREN: I mean, a lot of the concerns are the same, I suppose. You are trying to be both in your body and also in your mind.

NEIL: Yeah. Huh.

KAREN: And in someone else’s mind.

NEIL: In both dance and sex.

KAREN: Yeah.

NEIL: Huh.

KAREN: But see, this is so cliché to talk about dance and sex in the same … I mean, I did it. It’s my fault. But usually that’s what everybody kind of goes to, thinks about. I got pulled over one time in Texas for speeding, and the cop decided to search my car, and he asked me what I did for a living, and I said, “I’m a dancer.”

KAREN: And as soon as I said it, I realized, “Oh, god, that was the worst thing to say.” He thought I was a stripper.

NEIL: Uh-huh.

KAREN: I think, then, he searched my car, and I had, ironically, a french maid outfit and a bunch of rope, because I was doing lassoing and I had all these ropes with me, so I had just told him that I wasn’t in any of those businesses, and then he found all of my props, so.

NEIL: Miss, you did report to me that you’re not a stripper. However, I am in visual proximity to a french maid’s outfit. Care to explain yourself?

KAREN: Yeah, I don’t know what I would’ve said. Fortunately, he didn’t say a word.

NEIL: I bet he was so fucking turned on he didn’t know what to do. It’s like-

KAREN: No, I mean, I can’t imagine that that would’ve been the case.

NEIL: Why not?

KAREN: I mean, because I’m such a lesbian, I just think, and I was like … it was like 100 degrees out. I was wearing shorts and a tank top, but not like a sexy shorts and tank top.

NEIL: Right. Lesbian shorts and a tank top.

KAREN: Well, okay, not that bad, but really, like you know, and I was sweaty and gross, and not in a hot, sexy way. In a hot, miserable way, and the only lesbians he might know exist are in porn who aren’t really lesbian, so I just didn’t look like, probably … I don’t know, I just, I was extremely unattractive that day, even to my demographic, probably, whatever that is, and I don’t think he was a part of it.

NEIL: Just to return to the smell of dance, I’m getting from you that there’s not a awareness or focus on smell because too much else is going on, but do you associate certain people … ? Like, do you think, “Okay, person A who I dance with, I associate them with certain smells.” Or does it live in that way at all?

KAREN: No, sweat productivity. Not smells, but there are some people you’re like, “Oh, yeah, they sweat a lot.”

NEIL: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

KAREN: And if you have to grab onto them, you know, it’s whole different body mechanic you have to employ to keep a grip.

NEIL: To get purchase.

KAREN: Yeah, to get purchase, or you know, people who have really sweaty feet and you’re dancing on the same floor, or they sweat a lot and they lie on the floor and then you know there’s going to be a pool of sweat over there, and I have to dance through there, and so for me … I mean, maybe other dancers think more about smell, but I don’t think I’ve noticed it very much.

NEIL: Next card. The kind of deep sensing one does to modulate a fart if you think it might be a shart. A moment of profound somatic awareness/attunement.

KAREN: Assuming you execute it well.

NEIL: Well, you can be attuned and still-

KAREN: Mess up.

NEIL: Not make the landing, yeah, or whatever.

KAREN: Right. Not stick the landing.

NEIL: Not stick the landing, as it were.

KAREN: Yeah.

NEIL: I feel like I am most in my body probably when I am trying to modulate a fart.

KAREN: Oh, yeah.

NEIL: Yeah.

KAREN: Yeah, yeah. I would agree. I would agree. Well, is that true when you’re alone, or just when you’re with another person?

NEIL: Well, if there’s the fart/shart question, yes. It’s the same, clearly.

KAREN: Yeah, because the stakes are equally high.

NEIL: Exactly. If it’s just a question of noise, then there is a mismatch. In fact, indeed, paradoxically, when you’re alone, you sometimes really want to let it rip, you know?

KAREN: Right, but as your bodily awareness, and, how did you put it? What was the word?

NEIL: Somatic awareness/attunement.

KAREN: Attunement. Yeah. Is that equal, when you’re alone?

NEIL: I don’t know. What about, what do you think for you?

KAREN: Kind of in the moment, second to second, because what you’re describing, too, is as this thing is traveling.

NEIL: Yes, exactly.

KAREN: And it’s very high stakes the whole way.

NEIL: Absolutely.

KAREN: It’s like there’s a real millisecond-

NEIL: It’s very time based.

KAREN: Yeah, it’s time based.

NEIL: It’s a time based-

KAREN: Someone’s going to do that piece.

NEIL: Exactly.

KAREN: It’s going to be us!

NEIL: Oh, yes. That’s our first collaboration after this, just like, yeah, the modulation of farts. Hm.

KAREN: And there’s higher stakes with a fart than a belch, burp?

NEIL: Absolutely. In this culture, at least.

KAREN: Yeah.

NEIL: Maybe in other cultures it’s-

KAREN: But the awareness.

NEIL: Yeah, I think we’ve learned something, maybe. The cultural stakes of the fart create a type of somatic attunement.

KAREN: Yeah.

NEIL: I had the most disturbing thing happen, truly the most disturbing thing, because I live in constant fear of having bad breath, and the insidious thing about bad breath, it’s so rare that someone will tell you, “Hey, put in a stick of gum.” You know?

NEIL: And you know those people who will tell you that, and God bless them. They are your real friends, or if you have food in your teeth. I recently was in bed with Jeff, and I farted, but silently, and he was like, “What’s up with your breath?” And I think I’m going to live the rest of my days haunted by that.

KAREN: Oh no.

NEIL: You know?

KAREN: What did you say?

NEIL: I was just gobsmacked, and like, “You know, this is like, you have totally shifted my whole world in a really disturbing way.” That is something I’m going to think about recurringly for as long as I remember things, but who knows how long that’ll be?

KAREN: Another 10 years.

NEIL: Yeah. Okay, next card. Yoga teachers consistently spend less time on the second side.

KAREN: Oh yeah. Have we talked about this?

NEIL: Yes. That’s why I brought it up.

KAREN: Right, because the second side learns from the first side.

NEIL: Wow, okay. Is that right?

KAREN: Yeah, from just sort of a somatic, biological level.

NEIL: But does that extend to … ? I’m thinking, okay, for instance, you’re making effort with your right side. Let’s say you’re doing a side plank, and you’re exerting the muscles of your right side. Does that mean your left side doesn’t have to exert as much?

KAREN: No, I mean, I think it’s partly that your whole bodily integration is cued by the first side, and so you’re getting to the mechanics quicker on the second side.

NEIL: Interesting. Do you think yoga teachers are … ? I always take it as, “Oh, we’ve done that already. Let’s speed through it.” Do you think they have the times that are so surrounded?

KAREN: Yeah, I think there’s that, too. I think they’re also, you know, time. Because everyone loves savasana, and they know if they don’t give you enough savasana, they’re not going to come back to your class.

NEIL: I feel like-

KAREN: Then they’re like, “All right, we got to sort of, they know this. The first time, we do the first side. The second time. Okay, yeah, let’s get to savasana.”

NEIL: Well, I don’t know. I feel like savasana is … I’ve been doing yoga since 1991, and I feel like savasana has really kind of taken a hit with this whole yoga flow thing.

KAREN: Right. Sweaty.

NEIL: Used to be like, a solid 10 minutes or savasana, with a full on guided meditation, like, relaxing your foot, and now it’s like two minutes of savasana. Fuck that.

KAREN: That’s why your teacher is speeding through the second side, because he, or she, or they have students like you who are like, “I’m getting ripped off on savasana. Back in my day, we did it for 10 minutes.”

NEIL: We used to walk to school in the snow, and we would have 10 minutes of savasana. The thing of looking through the glass door at the push and pull. Okay. Do you get tripped up by that?

KAREN: Constantly.

NEIL: What is there to says about that? Maybe that’s just my observation.

KAREN: And I was just talking about this on this project that I’m working on. There’s a glass. There’s a room that’s got glass walls. There’s another dancer who’s working in that room, and we spent the first week at least, both of us, not knowing how to open that door on the first attempt, even though we went through it repeatedly every day.

NEIL: Because you saw the push on the other side of the glass door.

KAREN: Well, this one actually wasn’t even labeled. Yeah, and then I said to her, just the other day, I was like, “Remember when we used to not be able to know how to open this door, like the week before?”

NEIL: That would be a great graphic design challenge, because I work with a lot of graphic design students, but I find even, the thing about, even when it says pull on it, but if it’s a glass door-

KAREN: But you can see it on both sides. Yeah.

NEIL: Exactly.

KAREN: You can read both, and yeah. No, it’s like bouncing a little toy in front of a kitty cat.

NEIL: When you can see someone is crazy in their eyes, what are you seeing?

KAREN: That they’re crazy, right?

NEIL: Yeah, but what is it? Because I had a neighbor who was … I had this neighbor who was crazy. You saw it in her eyes, and I remember thinking, “What am I seeing that is cuing me to the fact that she’s crazy by way of her eyes?”

KAREN: Like, you mean behind the eyes?

NEIL: Maybe that is what’s behind the eyes, you know?

KAREN: It’s almost like a shininess.

NEIL: You think? It is a little bit reflective. Crazy is kind of reflective, and it almost seems like there’s something, you know, they-

KAREN: You look a little crazy right now.

NEIL: Do I?

KAREN: Yeah, you just got really, to see-

NEIL: I’m trying to think about it. Yeah.

KAREN: Yeah, you look a little-

NEIL: Okay. You look a little crazy, too. It’s something, you create something in front of your eyes, I think.

KAREN: Yeah, because there’s something behind them.

NEIL: Exactly. Exactly. It’s the mismatch.

KAREN: It’s like the push-pull.

NEIL: Exactly.

KAREN: Back here it says push, and out here it says pull. That’s what it is.

NEIL: We figured it out! We figured it out. Okay, next card. Great inflation in standing ovations.

KAREN: I know someone who won’t even clap if he doesn’t love a show, so he’ll just sit there and not even clap, and I think that’s a little rude.

NEIL: Yeah.

KAREN: But then that makes me think of about the different kinds of claps, because most of us will clap just out of obligation, but the different kind of clap, and tempo.

NEIL: Yeah, exactly.

KAREN: That you do, based on how much you did or didn’t like the show, because sometimes you might clap slowly if you’re really like, “Oh, I fucking hated that.” But sometimes you clap slowly because you’re like, “I’m so blown away.”

NEIL: Right.

KAREN: “My motor skills aren’t back.”

NEIL: Right.

KAREN: And then there’s the thing, too, of I always feel like, and I can tell as soon as the applause starts if this is going to be one of those shows where I have to do it, where I have to keep clapping until the last person is offstage, because that’s the worst, as a performer, too, especially I there’s a big cast and it take a long time to get people off the stage, when people have stopped clapping, and then you’re just sort of in this little traffic jam that everyone can see in a silent room.

NEIL: Oh my god. Yeah.

KAREN: I’m always feel … I try to clap assertively enough, for long enough, that other people might still clap with me to help these people get off stage.

NEIL: Right.

KAREN: But I can’t be the only one, because that’ll be really awkward, and then it also looks like I loved the show and I might not have loved to show, I just feel for the performers and I want to honor them by giving them cover.

NEIL: How do you feel about applause?

KAREN: Oh. After a show?

NEIL: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

KAREN: It’s nice, but it’s also … you know, there’s a little bit of a thing of, like, it’s awkward. That part, if you actually do some kind of bow or something, that’s sort of better than having to have conversations in the lobby afterwards.

NEIL: Uh-huh.

KAREN: That’s really the worst part.

NEIL: Conversations in lobbies?

KAREN: Yep.

NEIL: I get that.

KAREN: It’s incredibly awkward.

NEIL: If you do a bow, you feel like you don’t have to do conversations in the lobby?

KAREN: No, you still have to, but it’s not as painful as the lobby interactions usually are, because then you really feel vulnerable. You walk out, and people feel obligated to say something to you, so you never know if it … it must be like being really rich. You never know if your friendships are legit.

NEIL: Right. Yeah.

KAREN: Usually, people who don’t like the show don’t talk to you. Like, you don’t hear from people who don’t like it, whether from in person or later, which is also this weird echo chamber, so then there’s actually a whole, and I don’t know if this happens for you at openings and things, too, or just in general in your art world, but how you acknowledge someone’s work and congratulate them about their show or a performance in a show when you didn’t like it.

NEIL: Oh, god. It’s a part time job.

KAREN: But you don’t want to hurt their feeling. Yeah, and like, what is the language that you use?

NEIL: Right.

KAREN: And then you know that everybody else does that, and they use that same language, so you can’t use that. You can’t just say, “Congratulations.”

NEIL: Congratulations.

KAREN: You have to come up with something more unique.

NEIL: Yeah, and the insidious thing is, then, of course, you never know how to read … well, you don’t know how to read the incoming, “Is this them being proforma or is this being sincere?” I know my approach is off the charts praise.

KAREN: If you really mean it, or if you’re … ?

NEIL: No, either way. Either way, it’s going to be off the charts. If you say to me, “Can we have a conversation? I want your feedback about it.” You’re going to hear it. If you’re a friend of mine, like you’re not going to get the off the charts thing if I didn’t love it, absolutely not, but if I don’t know you, there’s nothing at stake, and I’m not proud of that.

NEIL: I’m not proud of that, but I do spend-

KAREN: No, I think it’s also probably not the most common tactic, so I appreciate that you’re above the fray a little bit, of the usual, just, “Congratulations.”

NEIL: I just feel so transparent. If you’re saying congratulations, you’re saying, “I hated it, or I didn’t feel anyway about it.” I want you to know, Karen, I’m telling you here right now that any feedback I give you about your work, to this point, has been genuine and going forward will be.

KAREN: I’m actually really open to people saying negative things or whatever. I mean, I think the thing, especially again, in dance, is it happens right after you’ve done it usually. And because it’s your body, you’re physically present there, doing it, and it doesn’t exist without you doing it, I think that’s the part that, for dancers, can be so tricky.

NEIL: Right. Yeah. That makes sense.

KAREN: And then especially if it’s the kind of project where you were dancing, and it’s really someone else. There’s always a thing about separating what you felt about the piece and what you felt about the performers, and making sure to articulate that.

NEIL: Yeah, that’s true.

KAREN: And that works well when you’re just talking about the dancers. You can be like, “Wasn’t crazy about the piece, but you were amazing.”

NEIL: Right. God, with art, you can’t really do that.

KAREN: It looks great in the space.

NEIL: Oh my god. That’s a good one. I should try that, I should try that.

KAREN: “I didn’t like the work, but it looks great in here.”

NEIL: What is a recurring thought? Something that you keep returning to.

KAREN: I have to feed myself every four to eight hours for the rest of my life. We all do. But that that is this thing you achieve, repeatedly, throughout the day. It’s Sisyphean. I mean, you achieve it, and then it’s gone, and you have to keep doing it, and you have to do it for decades.

NEIL: That is a deep one. Also, breathing, I think, and that one’s even more kind of acute than eating in that, like, wow. If that breathing shit fucks up, you got three minutes at most before you’re in real bad shape, or maybe even less.

KAREN: I used to think that about just heartbeat, and how … I remember when I was little that that used to just kind of really fuck with head, because it’s like, I knew that cars broke down, that parts could wear out in cars, and I would just think the heart, it’s just running, and running, and running, and running, and running, and running, 24 hours a day, and it has to last you your whole life.

KAREN: But nothing, like, there’s nothing else that you can even own or have in a life that lasts for your whole life.

NEIL: I often think-

KAREN: Fabric rots, or houses fall down, or cars break down, or food rots. You know, all these … but your heart, I mean, you know, which, obviously, it doesn’t for everybody, but still.

NEIL: Knock wood.

KAREN: Yeah.

NEIL: I was born in 1963. I think about what an appliance might look like, from 1963.

KAREN: My mother used to tell me this story when I was little of this suitor who wanted to get married, and he wanted to buy her a ring, and she said, “You know, I could actually really use a toaster.” Because according to her, she knew that the toaster would outlast the marriage, and she still has that toaster, it still works. That was the toaster that we had in my house growing up, like you know, use that. Whatever.

NEIL: Wow. Did your father have to look at that … ? How did your father feel about that toaster?

KAREN: I don’t know how he felt about it.

NEIL: Who is not that man, right?

KAREN: No, he’s not that man.

NEIL: Maybe he felt good about it. That suggests your mom would do great in a world war or something. You know, like … ?

KAREN: Oh.

NEIL: Would she?

KAREN: In terms of survival?

NEIL: Yeah, like, just brutal practicality.

KAREN: Oh, yeah. No, that is her. Yeah.

NEIL: On that note, Karen Sherman, thank you so much for being on this episode of She’s A Talker.

KAREN: Thank you. Oh, that’s what you’re … ?

NEIL: Yeah. Show’s called She’s A Talker. Karen, thank you for being on She’s A Talker.

KAREN: Thank you, and let’s hope she was, this time.

NEIL: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of She’s A Talker. I really hope you liked it. To help other people find it, I’d love it if you might take a couple of minutes right now to rate and review it on Apple Podcasts. Not to be pushy, but if you know anyone you think might enjoy it, I’d love it if you might share it with them.

NEIL: This series is made possible with generous support from Stillpoint Fund, and with help from Devin Guinn, Aaron Dalton, Stella Binion, Charlie Theobald, Itai Almar, Andrew Litton, Molly Donahue, Justine Lee, Angela Liao, Alex Qiao, Josh Graver, and my husband Jeff Hiller who sings the theme song you’re about to hear.

NEIL: Thank you to all of them, and to my guest Karen Sherman, and to you for listening.

JEFF HILLER: (Singing) SHE’S A TALKER with Neil Goldberg…SHE’S A TALKER with fabulous guests…SHE’S A TALKER it’s better than it sounds.